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"Tell us in substance what was the theory."
Thur laughed, "'Twould take a hundred years of steady talking, but to encompass.
the matter in a nutshell ... The priests tell us that Messire God is in his high heaven
among the holy saints and cherubim. He is too great to bother about us poor worms. We
may pray to his holy Son, and his mother, our Lady, but even they are of too high a rank
to heed our petitions, though kings and emperors may commune with them, perhaps.
"So, for us humble people, God in his wisdom devised the saints, and to them we
may address our petitions, and give them rich gifts ... and promise them more ... if they
help us. "
"Do they help you?" asked Morven.
"Well," replied Thur, "that is the trouble. Sometimes, by the tales you hear, a saint
may perform a miracle themselves, but more often they address a petition to Messire
Christ, or Madame the Virgin. They, in turn, may grant it, or, as it were, pass it on to
Messire God himself, who, should it be his will, is gracious. The priests tell of many
petitions being granted."
"My mother be for ever praying to the saints and giving them rich gifts, but never
have I known any result, and the saints (or rather the priests on their behalf) take the gifts,
and give naught in return," growled Jan.
"Whereas, in magic," continued Thur, "by the appropriate words of power and
their allied spells one can call the attention of (and to a certain extent, constrain) powerful
spirits and demons, and, by asking their aid, oft-times get it.".
"Yes," said Morven, "there be not much difference really, except for this. That if
the spirits grant thy wish, thou art not the poorer for having made rich gifts."
"It seems to me from what you tell, Thur," said Jan, "'tis as if, when one wishes a
boon from some mighty lord, thou bast first to see the bailiff, and give him a rich bribe.
After that he, in turn, speaketh to my lord chaplain, who speaketh to his lady, and she,
when her lord be in a good temper, speaketh of the matter to him and persuades him,
perchance, to grant the boon.
"But in magic, 'tis as if thou went straight to the under-bailiff and, by attracting
his attention, he is prevailed upon to grant the plea himself, and without bribe."
"Aye, it is somewhat like that," agreed Thur, "but also as if thou saidst to him, 'I
know thou hast been stealing the lord's corn (or juggling with
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the rents) and unless I get what 1 want, thou wilt surely suffer.
"Spirits are constrained through knowledge of how to attract their attention, and
after that, by making known your wishes in a way that they can understand, and also by
having the power to make them suffer. Should they not grant your request, by the strange
powers of sympathy, they do suffer, from the pains you inflict on their sigil they feel in
their proper bodies.
"Tell us now; Morven, how it is in witchcraft," begged Jan.
"Of much I am sworn not to speak," she replied. "But this I may say. In the
Christian belief you have a good God, or one who is good to you, so you say, and who is
all-powerful, and who greatly desires worshippers ... and yet you may not ask him
directly for what you want, but must ever petition some saint, who, as I understand, is but
a dead man. Also you must give money or other rich gifts before you can hope to receive
favour. Now, I cannot. conceive of an all-powerful god who is eternally in want of
money!
"We witches have our gods also, and they are good, at least, to us, but they are not
all-powerful, and so they need our aid. They desire fertility, for man, beasts, and crops,
but they need our help to bring it about, and by our dances and other means they get that
help."
"But your gods are but devils!" expostulated Olaf
"Who may say what are gods and which are devils!" Morven snapped. "My test of
the goodness of a god is this ... if he does you good."
"Aye," argued Olaf, "But what heeds it if he gives you good in this, world, and
casts you into burning hell in the next?"
"True," said Morven. "Let that be a test of the goodness of our gods. Now, if what
the priests told me be true, your God so loved the world he made that he devised a
burning purgatory of everlasting fire, into which he casteth all the peoples he had created
for many thousands of years ... except a few of a chosen race. Then, it seems, he changed
his mind, and casteth all that chosen race into this fiery pit ... all, save a few ... who
embraced a new faith which he had made! "
Thur and Olaf started back with horror, but Jan said: "By heaven, you are right,
lass! Why should a poor babe who dieth ere it bath a chance of baptism, burn in hell for
ever through no fault of its own?"
"But, " said Thur, "hell be a terrible country, and the only way to evade it be by
obeying the commands of Messire God and his priests ... even though it be sometimes
hard to understand. "
"Aye," agreed Olaf. "Answer that, if thou canst, mistress! Your gods cannot save
thee from hell. What when thou diest?"
"Why," said she, "having rested for a while in the lovely country on
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the other side of life, we come back again, and are reborn on this earth. We ever progress,
but to progress we must learn, and to learn oft means suffering. What we endure in this
life fits us for a better existence in the next, and so we be heartened to endure all the
troubles and trials here, for we know that they but help us to higher things. Thus the gods
teach us to look forward to the time when we be not men any more ... but gods!,
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